Curse

Effigy · Apr 17, 2006, 01:48 PM // 13:48

I agree with fallot here. A condition build should not just try to stack every possible condition in the game, but instead focus on conditions that really matter. Except as a cover, poison doesn't fit into that "really matters" category.

d3kst3r · Apr 17, 2006, 01:53 PM // 13:53

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Originally Posted by Effigy

I agree with fallot here. A condition build should not just try to stack every possible condition in the game, but instead focus on conditions that really matter. Except as a cover, poison doesn't fit into that "really matters" category.

Unless say... you base a build around Fragility. And using Conditions to cover each other is a bad idea especially with Mend Ailment so common, each condition only amplifies the amount of HP it'll heal by.

Effigy · Apr 17, 2006, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Fragility is about as gimmicky as it gets.

The point of a cover is to protect a more powerful condition by applying a weaker one over the top. It doesn't matter if they use Mend Ailment, the point is that they will only remove poison or bleeding instead of blind/dazed/crippled/deep wound. The few extra hp they would heal from MA is negligible compared to the disadvantages of having one of these conditions on them.

Conditions are not very reliable for degen, though. As you've stated, they feed MA when stacked. Also, they're too easily removed. The only way to really apply substantial degen with conditions would be through skills like Apply Poison or Sharpen Daggers on a crit-based build, so that the condition keeps getting reapplied and therefore requires the enemy to just leave it on or waste a lot of energy constantly removing it. Unless you can reapply poison or bleeding every 2-3sec, then they are not useful for anything besides a cover.

Yukito Kunisaki · Apr 17, 2006, 07:23 PM // 19:23

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Originally Posted by Effigy

I agree with fallot here. A condition build should not just try to stack every possible condition in the game, but instead focus on conditions that really matter. Except as a cover, poison doesn't fit into that "really matters" category.

Deep wound, crippled, dazed? They don't matter huh? How about overlapping them with say, all the other degen conditions?

Mend ailment? Good luck doing that through dazed...

Oh you have a teammate to do it for ya? Well dur, I have a teammate who's willing to daze him/her too!!

Dazed + deep wound + cripple means whoever I'm fighting is guarunteed to die in seconds...

I can get in there and stick to my foe for quite a while really, dropping conditions and leaving? I'll do that if I'm getting attacked...

But what about dropping conditions and staying to continue interupting them with dazed? If I'm not under heavy fire, I'll do that....

Or worse, after using return, how about equipping a bow just for laughs and attacking them while they're under dazed?

Or let a ranger to it?

If the team works properly to undermine the enemy team's condition removal, which isn't hard with anti-magic in mind, then this build should be nearly unbeatable. Warriors and rangers can't do damage, and casters get stuffed...

You're saying I can't do damage?

Let's see...

We've got Deep Wound, Poison, Bleeding, Dazed, Blind, Cripple, and maybe teammates throwing in On Fire occasionally...

That said, we have a foe incapable of doing anything... ANYTHING... and their hp is at -20hp/second AND here I am swinging with 16 dagger mastery at their backs...

Skill damage? probably not, shut your ass out of the game for 9 seconds or so? You bet...

Effigy · Apr 17, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

If you read my other post, I specifically stated that deep wound, blind, dazed, and crippled are important conditions. The degen conditions are fine for covering, but I wouldn't rely on them for damage.

Entangling Asp seems superfluous to me. It's expensive and it's not covering anything except cripple, which will be buried under four other conditions anyway. Deep wound isn't covered at all.

I'm not saying the build won't work, because it looks like it has a lot of potential. I would recommend diversifying a little though. If you come against a Martyr/Restore Condition team, you don't want to be completely useless.

Siren · Apr 18, 2006, 04:17 AM // 04:17

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Originally Posted by fallot

All of the details you've posted will help the Assassin maintain his energy at reasonable levels, but will not allow him to chain attacks. He needs energy right before a skill connects, because gains only apply when you actually hit the target.

And you think I don't know that he needs to actually hit the target to regain energy? He’ll be quite able to chain the attacks. See below.

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Therefore, with 32 max energy, the combo of Impale/Expose will cost 15E, leaving him with 17E total.

Re-read my post. He's not using both Impale/Expose at the same time:

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Originally Posted by SIREN

Total energy used: 50E or 55E over a span of approximately 7 seconds.

Note the "or" there, and then figure out how the total could be 50E, and then how it could be 55E. I’ll give you a hint. It has something to do with choosing between Impale or Expose Defenses.

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Now to use both Black Mantis Thrust and Entangling Asp simultaneouly [sic], he requires 20E. But thats [sic] not a big problem, as a few attacks will give you enough energy to chain these two skills. However, once you get to 20E and use these skills, you now have 15E to recoup to use Temple Strike.

You know the great thing? He can very easily regain enough E to sustain his chain, and Blood support from a Necro is a beautiful thing.

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Now Temple Strike is arguably the best skill on this bar and should be used as quickly as possible for maximum effect. Instead, the foe is given a window of oppurtunity [sic] where the threat of the Assassin is diminished.

When the target is Crippled and laid down on their ass, they don’t really have a window of opportunity.

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Frankly I have no idea how you reached those conclusions.

I used addition. I counted up the number of opportunities in that attack chain where he could slip in a normal auto-attack. And then I listed them as "approximately 5 times." You've got three attack skills (Black Mantis, Temple Strike, and Twisting Fangs) and if you use a normal auto-attack between Black Mantis and Entangling Asp, and then between Entangling and Temple Strike, how many times have you just attacked?

The answer is five times.

Six if you sneak in another normal auto-attack between Temple and Twisting Fangs. Given the Dazed, a normal attack will work nicely to interrupt anything.

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He will obviously not be attacking while casting Impale and Expose, nor will Entangling Asp trigger a critical strike.

No, but he'll certainly be attacking when he uses Black Mantis, Temple Strike, etc. Not to mention getting in one normal attack between his lead-off hex (if he uses one) and Black Mantis Thrust is entirely possible, in addition to in-between Entangling Asp and Temple Strike. And that doesn't make this build any less effective, because Assassins have a very fast attack speed, and it's so very possible to sneak in a normal auto-attack in-between chain combos like this (I've done it before).

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My ultimate point is this: If you do not have at least 15E left by the time you use Entangling Asp, you are reducing Temple Strike's effectiveness. It becomes less of a threat when the opponent is given time to respond to you. That kind of violates what you yourself have said:

If the opponent is on the ground from Entangling Asp, how do they have time to respond to you? And see above regarding E-return.

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If you are using normal dagger attacks between attack skills to regain energy, this no longer applies.

You haven't played Assassin much at all, have you? Had you played Assassin at all, you wouldn't be saying that. In fact, judging by how you didn't know that Disrupting Stab was a Lead Attack in another thread--something that every Assassin would know by this point, keep in mind--I don't think you've played Assassin in the least, and certainly not enough to make any proper assessment of what they can do in combat.

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He had better "give a shit" about it. If he ever wants to repeat his combo, he will have to wait the full 20 seconds. In an attack skill chain, the longest recharging skill becomes the limiting factor. The skill simply isnt [sic] worth the slot.

You really need to play more Assassin. They have teleport skills for a reason. They have high mobility skills for a reason. Their purpose is to get in fast, unload their attacks, and get out. This build is getting in fast, killing a target, and then Returning out. It uses Entangling Asp as a KD, a snare (if the Cripple happens to get removed or not), and condition infliction. He doesn't have to give a shit at all about a 20-second recharge. Plus, considering Entangling Asp isn't critical to his build, he doesn't have to include it each and every combo chain anyway...but that certainly doesn't make Entangling a gimmick.

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"Extra condition infliction" is the very definition of a gimmick. If this skill slot was occupied by something else (say Critical Eye for instance), the whole build would become a lot more efficient and a lot more effective. And please dont [sic] be condescending, I never said the build wouldnt [sic] work, only that it wouldnt [sic] work as stated.

Remember that you've sacrificed many precious seconds without Daze to inflict this knockdown. My main gripe is that the skill has obviously been added for the sake of poison. To inflict as many conditions as possible, not to kill, but for the sake of having a build full of conditions. It ends up hurting the build, and should go.

When I continually re-iterate that Entangling Asp serves a dual function, both as a KD and an extra condition infliction...Asp hasn't "obviously been added for the sake of poison."

Don't try to play spin-doctor against a spin-doctor, fallot. I'm giving you fair warning.

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I'm sorry, the only thing I can say to that is pffft.

I'm sorry, but if you had a point here, it was lost in the condescending tone of your "rebuttal."

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And please dont [sic] be condescending,

Oh, the irony of such a request!

fallot · Apr 18, 2006, 08:20 AM // 08:20

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